chiro question

chiro question

Question:

> Robert, Again chiropractors are not pain treaters or managers. Since > you are the one that sees to be refuting 100+ of clinical success ad 50+ > of solid scientiific research, tell me exactly what points you either > disagree with or are unclear about. I’m sure I can help you come to a > better understanding.

I don’t refute the efficacy of chiropractic care, nor its well-intentioned believers and practitioners, merely the manner in which chiropractic is marketed. I have a complete understanding of chiropractic THEORY, it is the PRACTICE of that theory which bothers me. I even understand the theory as to why a chiropractor would wish to see a patient for multiple visits for seemingly endless adjustments of the same segment. I disagree as to whether straight chiropractic adjustments, without adjunctive therapy to correct neuromuscular function, can fully address the needs of most patients. > I’m not even sure what your position is exactly, what your question is? > If you want consice research, start with vol. 25, Chiropractic Clinical > Controlled Research by Dr. Palmer.

I don’t have a question, I was merely commenting on the level of defensiveness displayed in the arguments for or against chiropractic. The arguments quickly degenerate into name calling, finger pointing and baseless philosophical accusations. I jumped into the middle of the thread because of the clear biases of both parties doing the arguing. It is a waste of time to try and convince the antagonists of the inherent correctness and "provability" of your position, just as they will likely not dissuade you from continuing with your practice. > The foot on the hose theory was never used by BJ, he put forward the > Above, Down, Inside, Out. What this is referring to is that the mental > impulses originating in the brain must descend down into the body and > tissue cells. We know this to be true, that the central nervous system > does control virtually every function in the human body.

Ahh…there’s the rub, that pesky "virtually" you’ve thrown in so cavalierly! CNS, PNS, afferent, efferent…let’s call the whole thng off! I simply don’t believe that the foundation of chiropractic – the vertebral subluxation complex – is all that valuable of a diagnosis, nor is its treatment – the dynamic chiropractic adjustment – all that valuable of a treatment. As part of an overall treatment program, spinal manipulation has a very strong and positive result. I doubt that whether a physical therapist, osteopath or chiropractor delivers the thrust makes much difference. The premise that the dynamic chiropractic adjustment is somehow different, and perhaps superior, to the other methods of correcting vertebral misalignment is, in my view, spurious. The contention that chiropractors are not "pain treaters or managers" is also spurious. Like it or not, chiropractors ARE symptomatic relief providers. I know this goes strictly against the grain of the "treat the cause, not the symptom" believers, but the fact remains that very few patients enter your office without symptoms which they seek to relieve. By providing corrections to the offending segement, relieving the pain, and offering pain reduction as the viability of the treatment, one is engaging in symptomatic treatment. I must assume that it would be ill-advised to adjust a segment which displays no symptoms? Unless one is True Believer…correcting subluxations without regard to the symptomology and consequences of the correction? Such belief systems are indeed mere witchcraft and voodoo healing. > By the way, my demeanor is fine…how’s yours? > Paul

As you may be able to tell, my demeanor is excellent. Informed, rational, well-reasoned and insightful, as well. Robert Conner Pain Management Alternatives Omaha, Nebraska

Response:

Rita, >Sugar douches might help with bitter pussy

ROTFLMAO!!!! I didn’t even realize how that looked until I retrived all the new headers a few hours later. Still chuckling, Kevin

Response:

Robert, Again chiropractors are not pain treaters or managers. Since you are the one that sees to be refuting 100+ of clinical success ad 50+ of solid scientiific research, tell me exactly what points you either disagree with or are unclear about. I’m sure I can help you come to a better understanding. I’m not even sure what your position is exactly, what your question is? If you want consice research, start with vol. 25, Chiropractic Clinical Controlled Research by Dr. Palmer. The foot on the hose theory was never used by BJ, he put forward the Above, Down, Inside, Out. What this is referring to is that the mental impulses originating in the brain must descend down into the body and tissue cells. We know this to be true, that the central nervous system does control virtually every function in the human body. By the way, my demeanor is fine…how’s yours? Paul

Response:

> Hey Robert, looks like you’ve outlined the medical approach quite > accurately. What does a pain manager do anyway? Does it pay well to > manage someones pain? If treating and managing pain were the only goal, > then traditional medicine has plenty of potent drugs in its arsenal to > do the trick. Health is a whole other story. Health is much more than > the mere absence of pain or symptoms. > Paul

Yes, yes, I’ve heard most of DD and BJ’s lines like the final line in your post. Quoting old Parker tracts won’t get us anywhere. I am completely cognizant of the ancient chiropractic (foot on hose) theory as well as the current VSC (complicated, multiple feet on hose) theories, but we’re still not addressing the problem of simplistic, antagonistic answers to complex problems. Whether the answer is chiropractic or allopathic, I expect a cogent, reasonable answer to questions regarding symptomatic treatment. I assume from your answers that you are a straight chiropractor: "only" adjusting the vertebra and allowing the innate to perform its functions? That’s fine with me, as long you can articulate the belief in the process without resorting to voodoo talk or slight variations and misrepresentations of the language. Health is neither the absense of symptoms, nor the treatment of symptoms, but the process of maintaining the body’s system. Whether the process involves chiropractic, allopathic or a myriad of other healing systems, no one practitioner has all the answers. Allopathic medicine does not have all the answers, but neither does chiropractic. No one system has all the answers for all conditions. All I want is a "straight" (forgive the pun) answer. I assume you are prepared to give one without resorting to snide remarks. Then again, I may be wrong. Either way, your demeanor tells more about yourself than your profession. Robert Conner Pain Management Alternatives Omaha, Nebraska

Response:

Sugar douches might help with bitter pussy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Paul, >Hey pussy(galore), how many different names are you gonna hide behind? > I know of four so far. >It’s great that spineless twits can hide behind computer screens these days. > No wonder why he hates chiropractors so much. No spine = no treatment. > <GG> >Your mom must’ve dropped you down a flight of stairs as a kid to make you so > bitter and ignorant. > Actually, I think she was smoking crack. >If you had seen a chiropractor, maybe you >would have turned out o.k.. I think now it’s too late. > And thus is the reason why Pussy is so bitter… > — > Kevin Smith > Palmer College of Chiropractic

Response:

>Bottom line: Snap and pray and lie and babble.

I think our favorite 13 year old chirobasher has created yet another personality. How many does that make it now? 1. Pussy Galore 2. Fred Rogers. 3. Ronald McDonald. Is this guy the Cybil of this newsgroup or what? <VBFG> — Kevin Smith Palmer College of Chiropractic

Response:

Paul, >Hey pussy(galore), how many different names are you gonna hide behind?

I know of four so far. >It’s great that spineless twits can hide behind computer screens these days.

No wonder why he hates chiropractors so much. No spine = no treatment. <GG> >Your mom must’ve dropped you down a flight of stairs as a kid to make you so

bitter and ignorant. Actually, I think she was smoking crack. >If you had seen a chiropractor, maybe you >would have turned out o.k.. I think now it’s too late.

And thus is the reason why Pussy is so bitter… — Kevin Smith Palmer College of Chiropractic

Response:

>If you actually have something *useful* to say, speak >up. Otherwise, go away.

Here, here! — Kevin Smith Palmer College of Chiropractic

Response:

>I mean, if he wants to drop by my office after New Years (I’m on >vacation right now), I’ll be happy to beat the tar out of him, but >somehow I doubt this will ever come to pass.

And then you’d get thrown in jail for beating the tar out of 13 year old. <G> Better to just do what his family and neighbors have done – and just ignore his rantings.

Response:

Hey Robert, looks like you’ve outlined the medical approach quite accurately. What does a pain manager do anyway? Does it pay well to manage someones pain? If treating and managing pain were the only goal, then traditional medicine has plenty of potent drugs in its arsenal to do the trick. Health is a whole other story. Health is much more than the mere absence of pain or symptoms. Paul

Response:

What the chiro who answered this thread didn’t answer is if HE/SHE would bring His/Her Car to an "ALTERNATIVE MECHANIC??" If you don’t touch your patients, the Chiropractors certainly WILL. — Remove STOP-SPAM from my return address VENI,VIDI,VISA: I came, I saw, I did a little shopping. J.C. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi there, > How many visits to a chiropractor should it take to see some > reduction in pain? > I went 3x per week for a month, with no change. Should I > find another chiropractor? Should I give it more time? I > have already spent alot of money. > I’m a chiro and would highly recommend going elsewhere! > Some reduction of pain and symptoms should have occured! > The chiro _should_ have re-evaluated you and altered his/her > treatment plan which was obviously ineffective. > Whether you subsequently see another chiro, or an MD/DO, > be sure and ask friends whose opinion you trust for > recommendations. Unfortunately, in _all_ professions.. > whether it be chiros, lawyers, MD/DO’s or auto mechanics, > etc., there are practitioners that are less than > satisfactory. > Unlike the naivete…or maybe pure ignorance expressed in a > subsequent post by Phil Lacio, the conservative approach of > a chiropractic has been proven to be beneficial for most > neuromusculoskeletal problems. Maybe Mr. Lacio would also > like to defame the MD (who was an ER doc for 18 years) I > work with, simply because he knows that chiropractic > benefits our patients! > g perrin, DC

Response:

> Hi Kim, good question. The answer is that you should not be seeing a > chiropractor soley for pain relief. We are not pain doctors. > We correct vertebral subluxation which normaizes body function. Pain > is merelt a symptom, the bodys way of telling us that something is > wrong. Any attempt to "treat" without the goal of addressing the cause > is similar to cutting the wire to your oil light in your vehicle when it > flashes red. Cutting the wire will solve the problem of having the > light on, but it does not solve the underlying problem and eventually > you will have a very serious problem. The same is true for pain and > merely "treating" it.

(snipped simplistic blather) Come on Doc…a more scientific assessment of Kim’s pain, and the chiropractic solution would be in order here. I promise we won’t be scared away by technical talk! How to be an alternative healer: 1) If the healing works, then apply more of it and take the credit (Glad I could help…) 2) If it doesn’t work, then apply much more of it (Well, you’ve had this problem a long time and it might take a while to work…come in 3 times a week ’til we get it corrected.) 3) If it doesn’t work and the patient gets worse, blame the patient (We just didn’t get to it in time. If only you’d come in sooner…) 4) God forbid the patient dies, blame somebody else (if only his/her treatment hadn’t been delayed by [fill in the alternative, holistic, allopathic, surgical, medical, drug or herbal treatment previously applied] we might’ve been able to do something) Robert Conner LMT CPP Pain Management Alternatives Omaha, Nebraska

Response:

Hey pussy(galore), how many different names are you gonna hide behind? It’s great that spineless twits can hide behind computer screens these days. Your mom must’ve dropped you down a flight of stairs as a kid to make you so bitter and ignorant. If you had seen a chiropractor, maybe you would have turned out o.k.. I think now it’s too late. Paul

Response:

> We correct vertebral subluxation which normaizes body function.

<snip endless babble> > Ask your chiropractor where your subluxation is and ask how long it will > take to correct it. Keep in mind that many of the causes of problems we > have, have existed for years before we seek help. We cannot expect > miracles from the body, it needs adaquate time to heal and function > properly again.

At least long enough so that you can build a second home! > Ask your chiropractor to fully explain the subluxation complex and how > it relates to your health, and not just your pain. > Hope I’ve been a help. > Paul

Paul you have been a wonderful help showing us how imptent you really are! Keep on Quackin’ (and pimping money from the ignorant!) I’m suprized you didn’t commit suicide from your one word vocabulary!

Response:

Otherwise, go away. Make me you wimp!

Response:

>Otherwise, go away. >Make me you wimp!

I love people who like to demonstrate how tough they are over Usenet. I mean, if he wants to drop by my office after New Years (I’m on vacation right now), I’ll be happy to beat the tar out of him, but somehow I doubt this will ever come to pass. These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "After all, this is still the land of opportunity. If you know where to look." – Jack Douglas

Response:

> >Otherwise, go away. >Make me you wimp! > I love people who like to demonstrate how tough they are over Usenet. > I mean, if he wants to drop by my office after New Years (I’m on > vacation right now), I’ll be happy to beat the tar out of him, but > somehow I doubt this will ever come to pass.

Hmmmm… You Sound like a hypocrite to me! I wouldn’t be so sure. You probably couldn’t beat the tar out of Micheal Jackson. Lose that gut and get some muscles wimp!

Response:

SUBLUXATION: The only word a quackopracter uses. They claim everyone has piched spinal nerves. Then they claim they can fix it. Bottom line: Snap and pray and lie and babble. HELP! HELP! My spinal column is not flexible enough! My spinal nerves are compressed and my immune system is not functioning properly because of it! HELP! HELP! Someone manipulate my joint! QUACK! QUACK!

Response:

Hi Kim, good question. The answer is that you should not be seeing a chiropractor soley for pain relief. We are not pain doctors. We